Larson Class Destroyer

[vipre]

Not a navy man but I'm guessing a majority of the crew on any ship, starship even more so, is going to be support crew. Voyager and ST6 I think did that best showing this, Voy having that one episode centered around those two low level sensor or tech guys and 6 showing the cooks and laundry people.

As shown in TMP the majority of the secondary hull was cargo and shuttle facilities. No need for that much cargo and hanger space in a DD. This might limit them to two shuttles with no dedicated on-ship repair areas and cruises of 3-6 months without resupply but eliminates the need for nearly eighty percent of the secondary hull.

The warp core/chamber is two decks high if that and by moving it and the nacelles to the primary hull you can remove the large connecting conduits freeing up more of the hull. Reduced crew space since you've eliminated cargo handlers, shuttle mechanics, machinists and anyone else you'd need to support a five year mission into deep space with no lifeline accounts for the needed room in the primary hull. The secondary hull was the factory everyone worked at the primary was the suburb they lived in.

All this is out of my Trek addled brain so don't take it too seriously. ;D

[zerosnark]

No. . .I like where this discussion is going.

Let's take a look at the "facts".

In the FJ technical manual, both the Saladin Destroyer and Hermes Scout are shown. These ships are given half the crew of a Connie. The Saladin bears an identical armament to the Connie, and the Hermes just has the forward phasers. The Hermes is also stated as having a VIP capacity (or somesuch)

The old Enterprise deck plans confirm the supposition that the secondary hull is mostly "boring junk" as noted in Vipre's post.

Now, the confusing part is SFB, where following the FJ tech manual the DD and CA are given identical weapon fits. The frustrating part is that the ships are also given the same "lab" rating. The Hermes also has the same lab rating, with the addition of "special sensors".

Having the same lab rating directly implies that
(1) the ships have the same "sensor" and "sensor analysis" capability.
(2) the "science components" have the same structural value in the ships.

Given that the Saucers are presumably the same, I can buy this but for the fact that some engine components and the shuttle bay must be in the main hull.

If I was doing the came system, I would buy all if the Saladin/Hermes ships did not have shuttle capability. Sure. . .you take out some crew quarters in favor engine room space and some replicator space.

Unfortunately, the DD and Hermes (In SFB terms) have fully half the shuttle capacity of the CA. Unfortunately, in the plasma and drone crazy game world of the general war. . .these shuttles are CRITICAL. The stupid DE bumps up the shuttle bays to FOUR and adds insult to injury by putting ready racks in two of those bays.

Also note that the Coventry and Surya classes appear to have two generous shuttle bays.

Ok. . . here is my thought.

In game terms, the DD and SC have ONE shuttle box. Modify this to TWO in a refit that makes the ship look like Lord Schtupps DD's (with a visible shuttle bay on the engine pylon), but still with a typical load out of ONE shuttle. The DE has the SAME shuttle bay arrangment in all incarnations.

And you don't get the FOUR G racks unless you add the extra structure like Lord Schtupp does for the DDG's. Want Aegis? You have to add the huge upper sensor dome as in Lord Schtupp's Pegasus. (Honestly. . .the Fed DDE is hugely debalancing. A destroyer with 4 Gatlings and 4 drone rackes? The Klingons do not have a cruiser that can stand against that firepower. . .except maybe the C7 or DX)

Keep the Fed CA to four shuttles boxes. Make sure the ship has at least THREE available (OPP 4.0 shiplist I believe defaults to two). The CC's carry the full complement of four at all times.

For the Coventry and Surya's. . .bigger bays means more shuttles. Make it size of "6" with "4" being the "normal" available. "6" would be the normal load for those lunatics (like me) who have created a CLE version of this ship. (The Coventry Escort refit, with 4x P1 FH, 2x Ph1 RH, 4xPG's on the sides, 2xphoton and 2xG drone is a mean ship quite in line with a DDE)

This makes sense compared to other races. Note that the Mirak only have two shuttle boxes in the cruisers, and three on the CVS . .which sounds utterly insane to me. One would think a Mirak CS or BC would carry two preloaded scatterpacks along with two admin shuttles at all times. Plus a full load of drones for the launchers.

[zerosnark]

And might I add. . . .

. . . I think everyone undervalues the *strategic* necessity of the Fed Scout and the Klingon diplomatic cruiser. In the TOS/TMP world, you don't have airplanes that fly between planets.

I strongly suspect that typical civilian starships do not have the speed and endurance of Class I starships. For a beauracratic top heavy society like the Federation must have, I am sure that the Scout is used as a diplomatic courier for many missions. Diplomatic crisis on Andoria? Send xyx minister with a scout. Makes an impression.

But a big, fast ship with BIG GUNS could make the WRONG impression.. . .which is why these ships don't have full DD armament. If a situation requires DD armament. . . and getting someone somewhere in a hurry, then just bring a Command Cruiser or Heavy Cruiser. You probably need that anyway.

I suspect that Tugs also fit this bill for fast transport, but having two warp engines these are more expensive ships, and are probably busy hauling priority cargo. Also, let's face it: The captains of Tugs are probably of lower rank than DD captain's.

As for "why not use a diplomatic frigate", hmmm. Good question. Because FJ didn't draw one? Because the ships are too crowded, too dorky, and too weak (especially without weapons) for the job?

As for the Klingon diplomatic cruiser. Look, subtlety is not what the Klingon empire is about. There is ONLY ONE impression to make when you show up. And that impression requires a fully armed cruiser.

[zerosnark]

Ok. . .. this has been a Federation Destroyer weekend. Inspired by Sir Mudd's Larson (a wicked cool ship! )

So in the beginning. . . . we have the "Saladin" class destroyer. Straight from FJ tech manual. Designed as a "cheap heavy cruiser", it has full CA weapons, but only one warp engine nacelle. Clearly, this ship was WAY underpowered. Another side effect of the single warp engine was the hideous breakdown rating. It was designed and built at the same time as the Constitution.

Concurrent to the "Saladin" and "Constitution", we have the "Locknar". A bit of an enigma for the Federation, this Andorian design was built as a true warship. This class wasn't talked about much, but has a nasty tendency to show up at hot spots. This ship also had a tendency to not be on fleet lists for border areas -> as they tended to be based a bit more "inward" so as to not be "provocative" on the border. Of course, at the first hint of trouble, these ships would be brought forward, and their apperance was almost always an unpleasant surprise to the Federation's enemies.

This ship has two engines, which both boost maneuverability and provide power for the torpedos. Note that this ship has more "balanced" firing arcs; the P1's are arranged in "quarters" (FAR, FAL, RAR, RAL). Three torps FA, One Torp RA.

The Destroyat is an earlier design, and was the first federation Dilithium powered starship. Only 10 built. An excellent design, this ship was equipped with a full arsenal of 10 P1 phasers. No Torpedoes. The power generation capability of the the Dilithium crystals were not appreciated, and the use of a pure Phaser battery was felt to produce a fast, effective warship. They were right. But Starfleet wanted destroyers with torpedoes. . .so. . .production of the Destroyat ended.

Starfleet was very unhappy with the Saladin destroyers. Too much had been attempted on too small of a hull. The first upgrade came a scant four years after commissioning: The installation of a "proper", though still small, shuttle bay under the impulse engines. Although nominal shuttle capacity did not increase, it actually meant that destroyer crews were willing to carry and use shuttles! (Note: Use Lord Schtupps excellent DD's!)

The Hermes Scout was basically a "Saladin" class destroyer without weapons. The weapon spaces (and associated crew quarters) were converted to VIP berthing and extra sensors. These were very popular ships. .. . once the shuttle bay problem was fixed. They were popular because they were FAST. Politicians and diplomats frequently used these ships for transportation within the Federation and on the Borders. (for situations where combat power was needed, the diplomats woud use a heavy cruiser as transportation). On the front line, the sensors were very welcome, and without photons to power: The ship was very effective.

Two alternate designs were developed as a followon to the Saladins: The Larson Class destroyers and the Akula class. The Akula class, with a second warp engine, finally had the power to utilize the photon torpedos. But the ship was still "cramped". The initial units also had the sad shuttle arrangements of the Saladin. The Akula's got the same shuttle bay refit as the Saladin early in the career. On the plus side, this ship had excellent combat capability. The breakdown rating was a "4". A "5" was simply not possible in this design, despite the dual warp engines. This ship was very popular with Starfleet command. Less so with the crews. This ship, however, was very unpopular with the politicians. With two warp engines, this ship was simply too expensive to produce as a destroyer. Production was halted in favor of Larson class destroyers and the Locknar class light cruisers. (Someone, I forget who, kitbashed a Lord Schtupp DD into an Akula. . .I use this model)

Designed concurrently with the Akula's, the Larson class sought to utilize the "single engine" concept to keep unit production costs down, and to make fleet maintenance easier. The breakdown rating was improved by use of huge structural pylons. . .a rating of "4" was simply the best that could be done with a single engine warp field. The impulse engines were made ridiculously large for a ship of this size. Hugely inefficient for "movement", they provided gobs of power for the phasers and shields. (I use "eight"). A properly designed shuttle bay was provided. Lab space (compared to the Saladin) was reduced slightly to improve overall habability.

In terms of weapons. . . the Saladin weapons fit was repeated, with only three torpedoes. A fourth torpedo was felt to be overkill, and despite the ship having a huge impulse engine deck, the ship would still be underpowered with four torpedoes. Unfortunately, the phaser arrangement was also identical, and the top phasers were restricted in the stern firing arcs. The Locknar phaser was considered, but rejected for unknown reasons. (I use Sir Mudd's Larson as this ship. An awesome model!)

A bit further down the road, Starfleet began experimenting with Plasma F and Drone technology. Putting this equipment into the Saladins (to produce the DDG and DDL) was logical: Those ships NEEDED low energy weapons. By the time the GW came about, almost all the Saladins were modified into either DDG's or DDL's. A few Larson's were also converted. Heavy weapons were 2Photon and either 2 G'Racks or 2 F-Plasma launchers. Note that these modifications were not widespread in the Larsons: Because the Saladins took priority.

No DDE variants of the Larson was performed. The Saladin DDE in SFB had "4" shuttles and 4 "G" racks. I don't think so. No room for this! I use "2" g-racks and "2" shuttles (no fighters). Four "G" racks in an escort would be cool. . . but maybe that was part of a Coventry conversion.

As the General war loomed, "Plus" refits were performed on the Saladins. This greatly improved their combat performance. The Larsons, which only had a "6" lab rating to begin with got a similar refit; Reduce "lab" from "6" to "3", increase "APR" from 0 to 2. (ship couldn't handle additional power in the infrastructure).

Note that the destroyers (Saladin, Larson, Locknar, Destroyat) never had a command variant. When command ships were needed, CC's or DN's were used. Having a DN with three or four Locknars just "show up" one day on the border was typically the start of a bad day for the Klingons.

As the GW loomed, the Federation finally bit the bullet, and designed a smaller warp engine for use in large quantities (not clear why the Locknar engine was not used more universally). These new engines were utilized to produce the Kearsage NCL, which displaced both Larson and Locknar production.

[zerosnark]

Ok. . .while I am still sober; here is my take on the light cruisers;

In the above post, I talked about the destroyers. I also noted that the Loknar and Kearsage (NCL) were intended as larger WARSHIPS. A destroyer with more offensive punch. As noted above, the extra punch comes from the additional power provided by the dual engine design.

The only reason the destroyers didn't have dual engines was one of cost. There are times when *quantity* is more important than *quality*

Now we come to the other light cruisers.

In short, the Light Cruisers come in two flavors: Warships and Explorers. The Loknar and Kearsage were warships. The Suryas and Coventrys were explorers. Want both functions in one hull? Then the hull gets bigger. . . .and you would have a Heavy cruiser.

The Surya was built earlier, and was very similar to the Ptolomy class tugs. Building on that design, the surya added additional lab space and big shuttle hangers. The intent of these ships was to perform in depth planetary surveys. Shuttles enabled this task.

In general, the Heavy Cruisers were on the forefront of exploration. They had the same in depth science capacity as the Suryas, and also had the firepower to get out of sticky situations if need be. These ships, however, were too big to stick around. If an indepth study was needed, a team could be left behind and eventually a Surya or Coventry would show up to provide relief and provide more longer term study platform.

Light Cruiser crews would often resent the Connie crews that would get the glory of first contact. Get the glory and leave the drudery for the CL's. The Captains of the CL's in particular hated Jim Kirk of the Enterprise.

On the flip side, the Connies had a nasty tendency to get de-crewed or destroyed outright. Witness the loss of the Defiant and Interpid. And the loss of the crews of the Farragut (50% casualties) and Essex (100% casualties). Having a Constitution appear at a perimeter starbase on some random Tuesday with all kinds of freakish battle damage from some new gosh-forsaken weapon of which NOBODY had ever dreamed was uncomfortably common for Starfleet.

Note that Frigate sized ships did not make good explorers. Simply too small to adsorb damage from the freakish unknown weapons. And too slow. And not enough cargo capacity. Explorers worked alone. . not in squadrons. Getting a Surya or Coventry shot up didn't happen as often as it did to the Connies. . .but it happened often enough.

If lots and lots of gear was needed at a location, that gear would arrive courtesy of a fleet tug. (Freighters were too slow to work on the frontier in this capacity), usually escorted by a light cruiser.

Weapons on the Surya were orignally similar to the ptolomy; 2 forward P1's and 2 rear P1's. But they also mounted a pair of photon torpedo tubes. Shortly after completion, however, this was recognized as being too weak and the ships were retrofitted to have a 6xP1 phaser battery, with a pair of P3's covering the stern. About half the ships were completed with the revised phaser armament.

Like the Bon Homme Richards were modified followon Constitutions, the Coventrys were modified follow-on Suryas. Same role, but the shuttle bays were larger. Rated as an "8" in game terms, vs a "6" in the Suryas. Weapon suite was also improved with 4 FH P1's in addition to the 4 side phasers. The ship also had 2 x P1 on the stern, instead of the P3's of the Surya.

Note that even with the heavy phaser armament, this ship still was not equipped with 4 photons, and thus was considered not as powerful as the contemporary Bon Homme Richards. Note as well that this ship is a bit smaller than the Connies, and has slightly smaller engines. (24 warp in the Surya; 26 Warp in the Coventry) Move cost of 0.75. Simply put, the Heavy Cruisers pack more punch.

These ships have the full "eight" lab rating.

Both classes were refit for the general war. The "plus" refit added a single pair of P3 LS/RS, as well as a "G" rack.

Being "Big"; some units were converted to "escorts". The Surya escort got the "G" racks in place with the photons, and added a PH-G pair RS/LS. Some fighters could be carried (say. . four). The Coventry escort replaced the photons with Drone "G"s and swapped the rear P1's for PH-G's. And could carry six fighters.

(editors note: Hmmm. I did this a while ago. Those loadouts don't no longer seem right , but I am sticking by it. If pressed, I would go with 4 Gracks on these ships, rather than adding gatlings. Note too from the other post that I have toned down the DDE's slightly).

Being explorers, these ships were considered well balanced. While they got a number of lab upgrades, weapon changes (beyond the plus refit) were not deemed necessary. A light carrier variant is possible simply by swapping shuttles for fighters and installing ready racks. This was done on "special occassions", but no ship served long periods in this role. For true carriers, the Kitty Hawk and Coronando classes were deemed adequate.

- - - - - - - -

And no discussion of light cruisers would be complete without mention of the Province class cruisers. Old, refitted ships, these ships served a similar role to the Surya's and Coventry. Being older, however, the weapon fit (lacking the rear phasers) was lighter and shuttle bays were umm. . . pathetic. As a result, these ships frequently were not sent on long exploration missions, but were used for "showing the flag" and misc. duties on the federation interior.

- - - - - - -- -

Although the Tugs were big, fast ships; they simply lacked the firepower for frontier work unescorted. It was proposed to create an "exploration pod", but it was recognized that Tug crews simply lacked the skill set for the work. And if you trained a Tug Crew to do exploration. . they wouldn't put up with dumb Tug work.

It is possible that you could create a "modular fleet" using just tugs. Battle pods. Cargo pods. Carrier pods. Scout pods. Bring two pods. This idea proved impractical on several levels.

-- - - - - - -- - -- - -

Destroyer Addendum: The Fed DDG destroyer did not always have "G" racks. Initial conversions used "B" racks.

In game terms, the "ADD" capability of "G" racks is de-balancing against earlier klink and Kzin ships. The full ADD capability came with the "plus" refit.

[Karol]

This site was... how do you say it? Relevant!! Finally I've found
something which helped me. Many thanks! fordero.shop