The thing that bothers me about evolution

[Atrahasis]

Why do some species like the alligator survive as they are for 200 million years or so? Or the celocanth for 60 million years? If all of the lifeforms on Earth evolved from more basic forms, how can a given species remain so static? You have to admit, 200 million years is a long time.

Right now I'm thinking that the answer lies in that some species are dead-ends. If the impetus for evolution is survival, if you reach the top of your local food chain then you don't need to change very much, just sit there and eat.

But then there is the matter of the celocanth, which is a rather large fish, but a fish it is which means it can be eaten, which means it should have become extinct or evolved right out of existence. And yet it's been around for 60 million years!

The mystery of life.

[I, Mudd.]

The footnotes of the cosmic trickster abound ...

... it's almost as if we finally figure something out, just to realize we never knew anything at all.

I, Mudd.

[Atrahasis]

I like that.... "the cosmic trickster"....Is he the same guy who makes my socks disappear in the dryer?

[I, Mudd.]

It makes sense.

John de Lance was on a soap opera before he was Q ...

... Makes you think, hm?

I, Mudd.

[Atrahasis]

All of this thinking about evolution recently has made me realize that if the drive of an organism is to fill a "niche" and if he becomes the dominant lifeform in that niche then there's little reaon for him to change any further. That's why an alligator, which is the king of the swamps and eats smaller animals, had very little reason to change for 200 million years. It also obvioulsy made him a lot more successful longevity wise, because his main diet was little critters that ate crap and didn't rely on large daily intakes of vegetation or meat.

This points out that there's little reason for human beings to evolve into another species since we are masters of our domain...that is, until we get into space. The changed environment will be what makes a new species from human possible.

[CaptainPierce]

But, as masters of our domain, would we allow such an evolution to occur? We have such a fear of things that are "different" that I wonder if, if some people started evolving, if the "normals" wouldn't do their best to keep them from doing so.

Or, on the other side of the coin, will technology give us the means to "evolve" ourselves?

[Atrahasis]

I would probably oppose cyborgs and clones...I prefer the natural way. Technology that helps disbaled people is fine, but we don't need another new species of human to give us more to discriminate against.

But far away on the moon or maybe Mars or some other planet, such new human species could find some security to evolve.

[CaptainPierce]

Have you ever read Dan Simmons' Hyperion novels, Atra? It has a situation like that, with some humans choosing to alter themselves to fit their living situations (including some who can survive in total vacuum, flying through space with huge force-field wings), and others who stay entirely "normal"--and even with the whole Galaxy to live in, they still manage to come into conflict...

[Atrahasis]

It goes to point out that our biggest conflict may not be with aliens, but with our own selves.

But then again, any species that can build colonies in space would have to be advanced, which entails peaceful and civilized. That's not to say they don't have things like the death penalty or a harsh or strict judicial system, but they at least have a citizenry that recognizes the value of life and wants to foster it instead of destroying it.

Which brings up interetsing point: If a civilization can be judged on how civilized it is by the number of wars it wages (ie the more civilized ones wage less wars), that would mean the US civilization is in decline, and at the same time we would see a lack of effort in space capability.

The height of the US space program was in the 60's and 70's, but what did the US get itself involved in then? That's right, Vietnam. Since then the space program has been a pale shadow of its former self and quite frankly I'm very disappointed that all they really have after 40 nigh 50 years are a few leftover aging shuttles and some probes, 2/3rd of which seem to klunk out during the mission (OK, it could be 1/2, I'm not keeping an accurate tally).

In contrast, you have relatively more stable countries like China and India, both regional superpowers, having very nice space programs which are getting better by the year. I think their secret is that they have been more careful than say the US has been when it comes to deciding whether to fight long drawn out wars or not.

So for reasons like that I find it ironic that people believe Bush one iota when he says he's for the space program...to have a successful one, you first have to first stop waging wars and make a peaceful society, otherwise you're too bogged down to even think of getting into space.

[S33K100]

Was there not a TNG episode where the crew picked up a 'John Doe' alien with amnesia who healed ridiculously fast and began displaying weird powers. They came across a ship of his species who said he was a criminal spreading dissent and lies, turned out he was approaching the next stage in their evolution and the status quo were petrified of losing their position to these 'evolved' Zalkonians I think they were called. They said they were ill or dissidents and had them all killed, until the John Doe one that is.

That is exactly the kind of reaction I would expect if any human started to show signs of evolution, the established powerbaseof a given nation will try and subvert the evolutionary process because it doesn't happen to the leadership first, it happens randomly, and usually among the common classes.

The subject of voluntary evolution has been covered in a manner of speaking by the strategy computer game Alpha Centauri, as your society develops new technology and society changes, traditional moral objections to genetic research and artificial intelligence fall away and various technologies may be developed that allow your citizenry to 'evolve' themselves.

At first it is primitive - a direct interface between the human brain and a mechanical component, basic genetic alterations that eliminate diseases and ailments. Over time as you advance technologicaly geneticaly engineered humans, and hybrid organic/mechanical humans are possible, the mechanical components being based on nano-technology thus there is eventually a seamless blend of technology and man.

The culmination of these advances are 2 'tech' advances in the game, the first is called 'Homo Superior' which is as it's name suggests, the combination of all these advances and man-made evolutions into one superior organism, genetically engineered and fused with nano-technology. The advance is accompanied by a quote from Friedrich Nietzsche about how man is 'not and end in itself' but a 'bridge between beast and over-man'.

The second is transcendence wherein humans are finally able to ascend beyond their corporeal form and effectively become immortal, living on as artificial sentiences, effectively sentient computers.

Of course all this is science fiction but the early technologies are not beyond the realm of possibility, genetic engineering to extend lifespans, wipe out diseases, mechanical components to dramatically increase intelligence and simple calculating speed. And really, there's nothing wrong with either suggestion, I would not balk at the concept of having a computer chip inside my head, aslong as it was impossible for anyone to 'interfere' with it, like a meddling government.

[CaptainPierce]

I'd say the success of China's space program, at least, would have more to do with the fact that the Chinese government doesn't have to answer to anybody for the money it spends there... Look at the widespread "meh" that the US public gave when Bush announced his grandiose plans for the Moon and Mars. Joe Six-pack wants cheap gas again, not Moonbases and Mars colonies.

Another reason for the decline of the US space program, of course, was the end of the Cold War. Kennedy's committing us to the moon by 1970 was a point of national pride, and people damn sure weren't going to let the Commies beat us to that. I wonder if Bush wasn't trying that same angle when he made his announcement, but who did he think we were competing against? bin Laden sure isn't working on any Saturn V's in his cave...

[MajorRacal]

the episode was Transfigurations and preceded Best of Both Worlds.

The general discussion is interesting, but as for these animals remaining unchanged for so long, that assertion (along with a few other theoretical assertions like those relating to intelligence and language abilities) is pretty flimsy.

Unlike most modern creatures, we've not got organic specimens to poke and prod or suspended in formaldehyde to prove one way or another that they are completely unchanged, and until we do such claims are speculative at best.

MajorRacal

[Raventree]

Well in regards to brain size..we are at an evolutionary dead end...the crainial size of modern Human infants makes childbirth tramatic enough for the child and the mother..we have achieved the max crainial size allowable by evolution...now..the body itself is still open to evolution if one changes the enviornment..normal Human variation on this planet is enough proof of that..light gravity will have longer thinner bones and less capable hearts..heavy gravity worlds would create just the opposite effect...

comments?

[MajorRacal]

Cranial capacity isn't the be all and end off of intelligence or necessarily the end of the line in cerebral evolution, or human development. From the point of view of dwindling reliance on intellect by many of the world's sheep-like population, we could theoretically begin to see cranial atrophy over time.

It may also sound politically incorrect, callous even, but from the perspective of "survival of the fittest" something else to bear in mind, is that conditions which would have killed off people at an early age in the past, or in the wild, are now being treated so that lifespans are extended into childbearing age. As a result more of these conditions are more easily able to be passed on to future generations at a genetic level, so it is also possible that the health of the human gene pool could begin to 'decline' as it were over time. Space travel notwithstanding, this could have a strong bearing on the future evolution and development of humankind.

MajorRacal