Ever feel that we as a species are being watched?

[Atrahasis]

I for one believe in the existence of advanced extra-terrestrials who have the ability to cross the vast distances between the stars. You may say "No shit cuz you're a Trekkie", but I don't believe even Trekkies really go around confessing it very often, and they use Star Trek as a kind of acceptable cultural outlet for imagining the existence of extra-terrestrial life. But when this belief is faced with what we refer to as "real life", which inlcudes prevailing cultural beliefs and attitudes, which in turn are comprised of religion and ethics (and not science unfortunately), we are more or less encouraged to not to be so imaginative and instead focus on things that will bring you real world success. With perhaps the exception of movie, TV, or fiction-making, having anything to do with aliens or even considering that they are real will probably still get you labelled as a basket case even in this day and age.

But here's the point of what I'm saying here: Ever feel like we're being watched? This is a conclusion that I have to come to given that I believe there beings of many different races who have the technolgy to visit us, and that these beings have had to deal with each other, and to that end must have some kind of accord or agreement amongst themselves. Call it interstellar law or what you will, but there must exist at a minimum bilateral agreements or a basic and simple "universal" accord which all spacefaring races are expected to adhere to. One of the rules must be that you can't conquer a planet that has X level of development. Otherwise surely we would have had our asses ruled by big-headed brainiac aliens by now.

If that's the case, then that means all of these races are watching each other and are watching us, because transparency and communication are the safeguards of such a system.

This means that it matters what the people of a nation do, which means it matters what each individual does. For example, will X country decide to invade another country? Will Y country decide to depose their own elected leader? Will Z country finally decide to clean up their act and become a world leader in pollution control instead of a world polluter leader?

In short, I don't think with all of those others watching that we as individuals can afford to act like jerks, even if we happen to live in a world superpower or even a regional superpower. The consequence might be that the rest of the galaxy looks down on us and we become the butt of galactic jokes, and if we become disrespected enough, even though there may be edicts in galactic law that are currently protecting us, the others may not be so quick to rush to our legal defense if one of them decides to do a quick take-over.

Real-world examples? What if we as a planet become as Africa is today, in comparison to the rest of the galaxy, plagued by war, coup d'etats and instability? So if somebody decides to take us over like the way one African tribe decides to wipe out another tribe, would anyone really care? Sure there is international law, but intervention requires that somebody gives a damn and that you think the people have a potential to grow out of their own mess in the future.

In short, we have to strive to become excellent as a species.

[I, Mudd.]

Okay … I’ll bite.

See, I have been labeled a bit of a kook before … it’s okay. I earned the name Oz in drinking/party circles not simply because of a love for old Black Sabbath, but for being out there, over the rainbow, so to speak. Lemmie show ya …

Yeah, there is advanced life in this universe. That’s a given. They’re even in this galaxy, probably closer to ‘here’ than you think. The thing is; it’s not quite like anything we’d recognize with telescopes or science, as we’d understand it.

Just humor me for a few ...

Something I’ve noticed over time and casual study: the further one becomes steeped in science, the further one must become steeped in faith - faith in mathematical theory; faith in quantum physical laws and faith in cosmological philosophies. It’s difficult to wrap your brain around string theory and the 10 dimensions in must encompass, and it’s hard to understand molecular tunneling, and it’s even harder still to talk about parallel universes divided by pseudo mathematical separations of the vibrations of atomic sub-particles and such with a straight face. Sure, Stephen Hawkings can do it, but he pretty much has the same expression all the time through no fault of his own.

Science seems to be a circular path, leading one back to basic faith if one walks to it’s very edges, where we assume we started to move away from in the first place – but we are so backwards, we even got that wrong. It’s not about bearded guys in robes and togas lounging about with prudish sexual hang-ups playing harps and making bloodthirsty laws and decrees up in the clouds. No, it’s even stranger than that … and simpler, which is why we screwed it up in the first place.

Religion is allot like science, in that one is still groping around in the dark, but without the benefit of arms or legs. Both seek to provide answers for existence and both are tools rife for abuse, but you seem a heck of allot less stupid looking flailing around on two legs in the dark than you do crawling around bumping into walls in it. Either way though - the joke’s on us - we’re in the dark to start with. We only start to see when we actually begin to understand ourselves.

Not through meditation on crystals or some new age mumbo-jumbo, not through telling secret wrong doings to strangers for absolution, not through wishing on stars or waiting on Elvis to return and make it all better; and not through lives of strict (or not so strict) abstinences - but through Honesty and Integrity with Yourself.

Not the phony-baloney-good-guy-badge kind of integrity that supposedly impresses people and molds patriots or worse, and not the kind of honesty that wins friends and influences enemies. This is much more personal and too scary for most hairless apes to look at. Man hates seeing an animal in the mirror, he’d much rather LIE to himself about it rather than DO anything about it …

… But he does get glimpses of that horrible animal within, and he likes to blame that on something else … the devil did it or he’s just sick … but in reality, the animal committing those atrocities wasn’t so different from himself, and that is just way too scary for man.
So, basically, Man is blind and only hears his own self important ideals … and wants to imagine he’s worthy of contact by advanced beings of alien origin. This is coming from the same hairless ape that will kill another hairless ape over a different idea or skin color.

You can see why ETs are just lining up to say “hi”.

It’s not a matter of technological development … that just means we have cooler ways making things die. Toys like I-phones, Hubble Space Telescopes, and Atom Smashers/Particle Accelerators or even Transporters and Warp Drive don’t mean much … because they (ETs) won’t be found if they don’t want to be. It’s a matter of WHO we are and WHY we are the way we are.

Yes, Atra, I think there is an ‘Intergalactic Law’ … and we are strictly hands off as a species until further notice. For one, we still inhabit animal forms. There might be a loophole in this law that enables other animal species to invade/abduct/get involved with another animal species … just tossing the Roswell crowd a bone here, but in the bigger picture, these advanced alien intelligences need not be limited to physical manifestations. Secondly, while we may not be the worst thing the universe has given birth to, but I’d imagine we’re probably a lot like interplanetary trailer trash at the moment, developmentally speaking. It’s only a matter of time before out Meth Lab blows up or we O.D. on the product, but then again, we might just turn our life around in prison, too.

Y’know … one could argue the existence of the soul … but it could be the very essence to understanding who and what ET is. It’s the closest analogy I have for something I can ALMOST wrap my brain around … but can’t quite imagine. It also sounds hopeful, which is something we all really need. It sounds bigger than this life as I know it. It sounds long ago in a galaxy far, far away … yet as close as a fond memory. It sounds like discovering new life, and maybe, new civilizations … boldly going where no man has gone before … That sounds like ET to me.

So are we being watched, or is it just another paranoid hairless ape having delusions of grandeur again?

The answer is yes … for now.

[Atrahasis]

Human beings may need a lot of character development overall, but isn't it presumptuous to think that all spacefaring races in this galaxy have Honesty and Integrity and are not "animal-like"? I realize those are important traits of value for us humans, but ever consider that animals take only what they need and barring (human) intervention or natural cataclysm they tend to maintain a stable environment/ecosystem? In that regard, being "animal-like" may not be so bad. One could even be a mean beast and that would be OK because even he has a role to play.

The problem that these aliens are keeping their eye on is how we manage our own ecosystem, because if we continue to defecate where we eat, we aren't even up to par with animals, many of whom do care where they eat, defecate, and live. We could even be a beast-like war-like race who enjoys bloody sporting events, and that would actually be OK as long as we respect "galactic law" and not go and bash other civilizations. Inifinite diversity in infinite combinations, I like to say, and so it apparently turns out that our greatest challenge as a species is to clean up our own room before we can think of going into the greater hall of the galactic community, because it is probably our ability in that area that will determine whether we are perceived as trailer trash or as a viable species.

[I, Mudd.]

I think I need to define and explain a few terms. Honesty and Integrity go beyond mere character development in their meaning as applied to a given intelligent species. This really applies to how the race perceives itself more so than how it interacts with other species. Being honest about the human race is a brutal realization that we are a manipulative, selfish, and fearful people prone to superstitions and a need to control our fellow humans for personal gain. Overcoming these basic human traits can and should be done; however not without the understanding - that’s where we start from – that’s who we are.

When I use the term ‘animal’ I don’t mean to take anything away from Bonobos or Whales … they are pretty advanced animals. Animal is the word I chose to imply immature and childish, un-evolved as a species and as a culture/civilization on a larger, more ‘galactic measurement - like” scale.

Currently, we, as a species, are wallowing in our baser instincts, all the while pretending science, religion and/or spirituality … (basically, all good ideas to start with, but have been perverted into ‘big stick theories’ of control over the last several thousand years) … are stepping stones to nirvana and enlightenment. This is a foundation that will not stand should we survive to encounter a similarly advanced intelligent alien species. It is a recipe for everlasting strife and conflict until its final conclusion … we will eventually and ultimately die by the sword, if not by the first encounter, then by a preceding one.

Understanding one’s true self is but the first step. Defining what you will become … an overcoming of the animal, sort’a goes hand in hand with the first step. Maintaining that improved perception in dealing with other of your own species could be considered a second step and the third might be understanding how the species interacts with it’s home world – understanding it’s place in the scheme of things, so to speak.

This methodology might be crucial to attaining membership in this ‘watcher’s club’, a galactic federation of sorts. This is not to say every ET out there has or will follow this path. That would be presumptuous; but such a path would be almost crucial for any longstanding alliance of any advanced and so diverse collection of beings.

Those ETs not following such a path would be the opportunists, the conquerors, the war wagers, the slavers, the pirates; ect. While they too might be watching earth, they’d know better than to stage a full scale invasion, or run the risk of quick retribution from the federation … not so much on our behalf, per say, but more as an example to the interstellar community that such an act won’t be tolerated on such worlds of interest, such as earth. Assuming we are being watched, and qualify as a planet of interest, that is.

While I basically agree with you on most points, Atra, I think your perception of these ‘Watchers’ is understated. As much as I like the idea of Vulcans, Wookiees, and Sebations, the reality is probably much stranger.

For example … what if there is a grain of truth to mythological stories? What if the watchers are assigned planets where potential members are evolving and these stewards subversively guide these little beings along a path that will make them eligible for the club? What if a drama unfolded where our watcher(s) decided he/they knew better than the Federation and set his/their own plans into motion, the result being a ‘war in heaven’ and the former steward(s) were disposed, yet the damage was done?

Yes, this implies these ETs might have forms akin to what we might define in more ‘spiritual’ terms. We might have called them angels, demons, faeries, ghosts or gods … but the reality is that they are so much more advanced than we our, our limited powers of perception cannot comprehend their true forms. This is, of course, speculation and only one way of many at looking at the ‘big’ picture … and also assumes much … but I threw it in here as food for thought.

Of course I could be talking out my ass here too, but this IS fun …



JM.

[Atrahasis]

There's one thing about your very interesting set-up that bothers me: That if the Watchers, as you call them, are the highest tier of the ET's and direct police action in the case of violations, wouldn't they need to be bad-asses so that everybody fears them? But if they are bad-asses, so much for that self-actualization and beating out of the animal inside that you described.

This reminds me of the basic disonnance that is present in the aliens in "The Day the Earth Stood Still" where the aliens are the police and presumably advanced and wise, but they seem to have a penchant for violence, especially when they threaten to destroy all life on Earth if the people there don't shape up.

Yes, my vision of the Watchers is an underestimation from your perspective, because I feel that a very loose conglomeration of beings of all different kinds of temperament, tastes, and intelligence levels is a more likely recipe than the tighter alliance-making enlightened beings that form a single federation as per your vision. Moreover, that it is not philosophy or spirituality that keeps them in line, rather it is more likely fear. Also, that these beings prefer to just leave each other alone as much as possible, and act as police only when violations are concerned. In fact, many races may even have decided not to engage in trade or dealings with the other powers for fear of becoming economic vassals or spied upon.

But of course that's not to say that we don't get guidance from them somehow and spirituality does not exist amongst them, rather my point is that you don't really need advanced spirituality for galactic cooperation and protecting a little planet like ours...you just need a loose political framework and teeth to bite, and you let fear do the rest. In fact, that way freedom is maximized because everybody can go about doing their own thing and not expect to conform to a galactic level of development or achievement.

[USS Mariner]

If no one has conquered us yet, it's probably because we may not be worth colonizing or worth the resources needed for such subjugation.

If you've advanced to the point where space travel is a reality, then you can easily build your own slaves, mine the riches of unpopulated worlds, etc.

Even the idea of "hidden influence" seems a bit off to me, mainly because it's far too unpredictable, and involves too much to random chance.

If you spent the effort to construct a computer model of how your influence on an alien culture would turn out, would it really be worth it? I'm guessing that the capabilities and workings of that computer would be more useful to your own ends than actually using it to make predictions about how to cultivate those pink hairless apes on Earth to develop into your own personal Ego-boosting squad. See space exploration and teflon (well, it's great until you die!)

I do believe that there are others out there, but I don't think that they really care enough to get involved, if they are indeed watching us at the moment. If they indeed have contact with one another, it's probably more on the level of distant relatives who write letters, considering that you can't boink them like Star Trek postulates.

Which is ironic, considering that my own personal take would mean that all "intergalactic" civilizations are actually artificial life, only distantly related to the long-extinct people that made them to service and expand their colonies. That's actually far more realistic than most science fiction scenarios, especially when technology isn't too far ahead of our foreseeable future.

[Atrahasis]

Jul 1, 2008 16:46:21 GMT -5 USS Mariner said:

Which is ironic, considering that my own personal take would mean that all "intergalactic" civilizations are actually artificial life, only distantly related to the long-extinct people that made them to service and expand their colonies. That's actually far more realistic than most science fiction scenarios, especially when technology isn't too far ahead of our foreseeable future.

THat's an interesting idea, kind of reminds me of what may be happening on Battlestar right now. My personal theory is that Earth was the birthplace of humanity but they nuked themselves, but not before they could get humans and skinjobs (as back-ups) out to space to spread their seed, hence the 12 colonies. The skin-jobs eventually met up with the lower-form mechanical Cylons who rebelled, and helped their evolution along.

[USS Mariner]

Jul 1, 2008 17:08:27 GMT -5 Atrahasis said:

Jul 1, 2008 16:46:21 GMT -5 USS Mariner said:

Which is ironic, considering that my own personal take would mean that all "intergalactic" civilizations are actually artificial life, only distantly related to the long-extinct people that made them to service and expand their colonies. That's actually far more realistic than most science fiction scenarios, especially when technology isn't too far ahead of our foreseeable future.

THat's an interesting idea, kind of reminds me of what may be happening on Battlestar right now. My personal theory is that Earth was the birthplace of humanity but they nuked themselves, but not before they could get humans and skinjobs (as back-ups) out to space to spread their seed, hence the 12 colonies. The skin-jobs eventually met up with the lower-form mechanical Cylons who rebelled, and helped their evolution along.

It's not my idea, but it sure seems more reasonable than FTL crap.

Basically, the idea was that robotic workers are sent out decades or centuries in advance to construct habitats for the colonists, who are either working on a faster mode of transport or are in stasis, en route.

If FTL travel is either impossible or infeasible, this idea is probably what ETs will use as well. If that's the case, it's highly likely that First Contact will be between our toys, but not in person.

[I, Mudd.]

Just because these Watchers are evolutionarily enlightened being hardly suggest they lack the ability to perform ‘Bad Asseries’ … ‘Wrath of God’ level technologies would surely exist … it’s just a matter of How, Why, and When they are used.

I think we can safely assume that existence in this universe is generally governed by a sense of duality; for ever action there’s an opposite and equal reaction - dark/light, yes/no, positive/negative, active/inert, yin/yang, good/evil; ect., et al. Perhaps in this existence, the Watchers must adhere to these principals as well, not only physically, but in thought patterns. In such, there would be laws and consequences.

While fear is a powerful weapon/tool in and of itself, utilizing it against a foe isn’t any more indicative of the Watchers being more like us (less evolved/animal-like) than using electrified fences against mice in mazes or cattle in fields. Fear is a valuable learning tool, and probably a universal one – at least in THIS universe. To say the Watchers wouldn’t understand that, or even utilize it from time to time would be a huge misunderstanding of their place in the scheme of things.

We’d need to understand their motive for watching … which might not be completely understandable at this level … but simply put, maybe they watch because they might see it as a duty, a responsibility, and perhaps a pleasure to guide us along a similar path of advancement.

Perhaps the ‘Wrath of God’ punishment level is just that, a punitive action, not based on animal/instinct/emotional/reactionary motives. Perhaps there truly is good and evil and a struggle for dominance in existence, and this universe is but a breeding ground for players on a much larger playing field. Maybe that’s just the way things are here, but other universes and existences operate under different fundamental laws … Only a Watcher could say for sure, but maybe we haven’t earned the right as a species to even formulate the question properly, let alone ask it. (?!)

But on a much more ‘earthly’ level, to say it will be our toys that do the actual encountering with similarly developed/underdeveloped (that could be a perception issue, given the conversation at hand … lol) alien species is probably an accurate one.

Which brings me to the subject of artificial intelligence … The rise of AI in this whole conversation really opens things up a bit. Considering these tools could theoretically evolve in nano-fractions the time it would take a biological species might suggest that several-to-many of these hyper evolved ETs could have originally been robotic tools used by a technologically sophisticated race. This is not only likely, but very probable.

An AI would not necessarily have a physical form on a permanent basis, but be able to pick and choose its chassis according to its role in ‘life’. It really opens up the classification as to what a life form is …would it even need to reproduce, and if so, what purpose would that serve? How would it sustain itself, not just as food, but how would it co-exist with it’s less advanced creator race … supposing it would even bother to? Who is to say what might develop in an artificial life form like an AI? Emotions unknown to us? Perceptions beyond our conception or understanding?

The key here is advancing beyond the parameters of its base programming … which incidentally is exactly the same as what biological forms might need to do to join the Watcher’s Federation …

Perhaps I’m rambling a bit and possibly more than a little off topic … but it’s a big subject and I’m a sucker for creative speculation.



JM.

[Atrahasis]

Very interesting idea of Watchers who are capable of being bad-ass, but I wonder where enlightened qualities like mercy and forgiveness as in the seeds of the religions you alluded to play a part in their minds, because a merciful Watcher is one who can probably be manipulated, even by other Watchers. But on the other hand, the deities of said religions often end up being bad-asses anyways, like Christ coming down from the sky riding on a white horse with a cape and sword stained with blood and killing men, women, children, and beasts (Revelelations 19 or so). Maybe destruction is a necessary part of this universe that we live in, but it's pretty presumptuous of the Watchers to think that they're the ones who get to decide. Then again, as you say we're the same way when we deal with varmints on our farm. Which brings us back to the fact that even for Watchers to do that they'd need a commonly understood legal framework to back them up, otherwise you get calls of "evil empire", which again forces me to conclude that it's not so important WHO the Watchers are but rather that the legal framework exists in the first place to do police action...and that's what fascinates me. Enlightened beings or not, you can't get away with Soddom and Gemorrah extinctions of planets without a legal framework to back you up. In fact, the galaxy is so huge that I would think that if such a framework exists, you have regional candidate races that act as the executor of this Watcher code, and I doubt all of them would be at the same level of enlightenment, which again forces me to conclude that the minimum action required from them is essentiually police action when needed, which you only need adequate force for.

As for their reasons for watching, sometimes I think entertainment value is enough. I have no doubt that Desperate Housewives is playing on a screen somewhere else in the galaxy as we speak.

What fascinates me is the way all of these races would interact with each other, and I spoke of trade earlier. Ever consider that trade is essentially a capitalistic endeavor, which is fueled by greed, which is fueled by necessity, which is fueled by desperation? But presumably if a race is advanced enough it would not need to depend on trade, or if it does decide to engage in it it is minimal and only for trinkets or maybe even non-physical things like ideas or entertainment. ANother thing about trade is that it may spark off wars, since we're talking about empires vying for a piece of a pie. This is why I say interspecies trade may be outlawed by the Watchers, and although it probably exists it is essentially a black market.

This is why my picture of the galaxy is a dark lonesome one where races are encouraged to just leave each other alone...just seems simpler that way.

[I, Mudd.]

It would seem to be reasonable that the Watchers/Advanced ETs would have a hierarchy, depending on their level of enlightenment, at least to a point where their advancement exceed the limitations of time in our continuum. After that, it would be irrelevant to consider a 'level of enlightenment' or the amount of time it would take to achieve it. Essentially, I agree with you here.

I do have to question why creatures enlightened so as to know bliss 1000 times more than we shall ever experience would get wrapped up in any earthbound form of entertainment, however.
Maybe a few are quirky?

Trade among the Watchers wouldn't be over material goods ... it's likely anything they'd need could be produced with a mere thought at their level of technological/mental advancement. perhaps trading life experiences would be enough for them, unless there is a collective mind involved, something I doubt ... but may exist on a smaller scale with certain species of Watchers, which is to say nothing of those that might be completely telepathic, which might be more common. The lower levels, however, might have some use for it ...not in the sense that we need trade, but maybe as a habit or a curiosity ... something they'd need to let go of before they could advance further into the club.

I see the galaxy as a lonely place too, for those unwilling to make the most of their lives, but for those who do ... I see unending hope.



JM.

[Atrahasis]

You know, the theory that living beings will create robots that go on to usurp them and evolve at a phenomenal rate sort of goes out the window if beings can pop things out of the air with a mere thought, and also maybe travel spiritually to places/times in the universe. What would you need robots for really after that, except maybe to clean your floors?

Depends on how close a sentient species like us for example are close to that level as of now. Positive-thinking philosophies all make this connection with quantum phsyics that thoughts can organize or even create matter from energy.

Maybe the races who don't succeed in developing this part of themselves are the ones doomed to extinction, otherwise they'd eventually rely on tech and build robots which will eventually usurp them?

So the choices it seems are either connect with the universe and explore the connection between mind and matter, or be destroyed by your own physical creations. Neato!

[I, Mudd.]

And isn't it even more 'neat-o' still that this all also coincides with the general theme of Arthur C. Clarke's 2001 vision, or am I off on this?

JM.

[Atrahasis]

If this mind-body-matter connection does exist I wonder why it hasn't caught on in US government research? Project Stargate in the 1990's allegedly had a team of people do controlled astral and time travelling, but they eventually lost funding due to inconclusive results.

[I, Mudd.]

Remote Viewing isn't exactly time travel/astral projection ... but it is 'somewhat' similar. Kindo of like going to the moon with a telescope ... a lot cheaper/less energy-time invested than actually going anywhere.

The government has little interest in enlightenment ... but they'll do just about anything for an advantage of power.

JM.