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Post by Atrahasis on Dec 31, 2004 9:00:49 GMT -5
So what do think of my (abbreviated) specs? I think they fall in line. BPV=173 (as per shipedit3) Uses FCX UI Shields 40-30-30-30 = 190 Warp 18+18=36 hp1 2 phot FA hp2 2 phot FA hp3 1 DroG 2 hp4 1 DroG 2 hp5 2 ADD6 1 hp11 2 Ph1 ALL hp12 2 Ph1 FRRX hp13 2 Ph1 FLLX hp14 2 Ph1 FH hp15 2 Ph1 FH hp16 2 Ph1 RH All others as FCC Question: Why do you have HP 11, the forward bank on the UI, with an "ALL" arc...shouldn't an "ALL" arc be the sec hull's bank?
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Post by The Half Monte on Dec 31, 2004 16:53:35 GMT -5
I combined elements from Schutpp's abbreviated set, the F-CCs, and Atrahasis' for the Enterprise and Endeavor. My main goal was to cut the 180 degree phaser arcs, as I've become an adamant believer of the 60 degree principle...
USS Monitor (CH4C)-----------------------------------USS Enterprise (CH5) Class Type: HEAVY_CRUISER Hull: CA Special Role: C---------------------------N/A Balance: (11)-----------------------------(29) <--- Adjustment for phasers on SFBR/L arcs, because SE can't calculate them... BPV: 174-----------------------------------216 First Year: 6-----------------------------7 Last Year: 999------------------------------999 Base class: USS Achernar
R/L warp: 18 (36)-------------------------------20 (40) Impulse: 4---------------------------------5 APR: 2 Battery: 4---------------------------------5 Bridge: 6 Lab: 8 Transporters: 3----------------------------4 Tractors: 2 Size class: 3 Turn Mode: D Move cost: 1 Acceleration: 10 HET: 1 HET Breakdown: 5 Explosion: 20------------------------------25 Sensors: 8 Scanners: 8 Dam Con: 6 Probes: 2 Shields: 36/29/24/24 (166)-----------------------40/32/27/27 (185)
Fwd hull: 12-------------------------------14 Aft hull: 4 Cargo: 2-----------------------------------3 Excess dam: 6------------------------------8 Bay size: 4 Launch rate: 1 Shuttle Base: 2 Max: 4 Crew reg: 41-------------------------------42 Min: 4 Marines base: 10---------------------------12 Max: 20------------------------------------24
Weapons for USS Monitor:
hps 1 & 2 = 2 X Phot FA hps 3 & 4 = 2 X DroG Arc 2
hp 7 = 2 X ADD6 Arc 1
hp 11 = 4 X Ph1 FA hp 12 = 2 X Ph1 SFBR hp 13 = 2 X Ph1 SFBL
hp 16 = 2 X Ph1 FA hp 17 = 2 X Ph1 RA
Total armament for USS Monitor:
4x Photon 4x Missle Rack G 12x Phaser 1 2x ADD6
Thoughts?
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Post by Atrahasis on Dec 31, 2004 19:11:44 GMT -5
That's quite close to what I have...except my movement ratio for the Endeavor/Achernar/Consttition-Bonhomme is (0.9) instead of 1. That means every 10th point of power it has, it will mean a free point, which actually comes in helpful. If total warp engine power is 36, that means it can theoretically travel at speed 31 with 9.6 warp engine power points left over for other use. If the ratio were 1, it would only have 6 points left over.
What determines movement ratio? Ship's mass, imo. There may be other factors in some cases, by mass seems to be a good general rule of thumb.
My Endeavor sensor/scanner values are still at 6, because I don't believe it has a more extensive sensor system than the BonHomme. It might have better quality, but probably not more extensive. The reason why the TOS F-DN has a value of 10 for sensors/scanners is that it has two deflector/sensor dishes, fore and aft. If we identify all the known sensors on the TOS-style ships, basically the one atop the bridge, the one below the saucer, and the one on the sec hull, we can break down the points system as follows: 1 point for the bridge, 1 point for the lower saucer, 4 points for the sec hull dish. I can't identify any extra sensors that the Endeavor has over the Bonhomme, so the value remains at 6. Remember, this value reflects not how good a given sensor system is, but how many HITS it can take.
Enterprise is a slightly different story: 1 pt for the bridge, 1 for the lower saucer, 4 for the dish, 3 for the extra sensors around the dish. Total = 9, which may seem high, but then again the DN had 10.
The deflector dish is a kind of sensor. In the second pilot episode "Where no man has gone before", Spock says about the Galactic Barrier: "Sensors say there's nothing there, defelctors say there is." The navigational deflector not only swept crap away from the path of the ship, but it was also used to reach out and feel something. It's probably a graviton or gravitational wave-based instrument. That all means that we should probably take a look at the size of a ship's sensor/deflector system to judge how many hit points to give it.
For the Miranda it would be 8. Can you guess why? The Excelsior should probably be 10.
The enemy races like the Klingons may need slightly altered standards to decide their sensor values. First of all, I believe that the nav defelctors for Klingon ships are in the torp tubes. This is because in the oldest production-era diagrams of the D-7 the torp tube is not a torp tube, but is called a deflector or an antenna. If torpedoes were direct-fire energy-based weapons in that era, I don't have any difficulty seeing an array that can act as both a deflector and a torp launcher. It all involves manipulation of antimatter into other forms of energy, be they gravitons or photons, and the defelctor dish is quite capable of doing that as we found out in TNG.
Anyways, to make a long story short, I believe the sensor/defelctor locations for a Klingon ship are 4 points for the torp tube (nav deflector), 2 points for the "tower". Total of 6 for the TOS Klingon.
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Post by Atrahasis on Dec 31, 2004 20:12:08 GMT -5
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Post by Atrahasis on Dec 31, 2004 20:41:22 GMT -5
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Post by Atrahasis on Dec 31, 2004 20:44:09 GMT -5
Note that for a 3-d game like Bridge Commander, the bottom secondary hull phasers of a Fed ship can fulfill their TRUE function, which is simply to cover the bottom of the ship for those situations when you're on top of your target. But with SFC you have to adapt the sec hull phasers into something useful (and sensible) in a 2-D way. For example, it's probably overdoing it if you make all four sec hull bottom phasers on a Enterprise-class ship able to fire FWD in SFC, because on the real ship in 3-d space it can't do that. All 4 may be able to fire at a target BELOW the ship, but not one that is directly in front of it. The logical thing to do is to divide and limit those phasers in a 2-d way.
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Post by The Half Monte on Jan 1, 2005 0:15:58 GMT -5
For the Miranda it would be 8. Can you guess why? Minus one extra sensor? I'm not certain, as I'm not particularly knowing of the Miranda's technical aspects... I do have another question, though. Labs. I've researched them, yet I haven't come to a conclusion as to what they do, much less how one should pick a value.
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 1, 2005 0:20:45 GMT -5
Minus one extra sensor? I'm not certain, as I'm not particularly knowing of the Miranda's technical aspects... I do have another question, though. Labs. I've researched them, yet I haven't come to a conclusion as to what they do, much less how one should pick a value. Because it's got a much smaller deflector. Legend has it that it's that glowie round thing underneath the impulse engine. I have no problems believing that force fields are used to deflect the deflector beam into an L shape in front of the ship. Labs determine how fast your shields reharge after they take damage. 2 lab points will heal 1 shield point per turn. Therefore if you have 8 labs, you can heal 4 shield points per turn, providing you have the power for the labs. That's why you heal faster when you're at rest. COnsider it a part of the shield system, and the more labs a ship has the better the shield system is.
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Post by Mariner Class on Jan 1, 2005 1:17:12 GMT -5
Because it's got a much smaller deflector. Legend has it that it's that glowie round thing underneath the impulse engine. I have no problems believing that force fields are used to deflect the deflector beam into an L shape in front of the ship. "Captain, after suffering baffling a problem with the ship's identity tranponder, sensors have detcted a building concentration of FANDOMBULLSHIT ahead. Recommend a burst of Facton Torpedoes to dissipate the cloud." Funny thing is, from the first time we see the Miranda in TWOK, it's clear that no such deflector exsists. Although the aft impulse section was made with the help of two identical sets of Impulse Engines, only the top engine is complete, with aft vents and impulse deflection crystal intact. The bottom was used as decor more or less (unless you count the pinhole light there as a deflector. ) Now, if you want a real deflector candidate, try the two space-energy "sensors" (as termed by several original sources, probably Jackill's or Mr. Scott's Guide to The Enterprise. Saw it in an issue of ST:Communicator myslef,) on the Miranda's top. Just remember that the term "sensors " can actually apply itself to things other than straight passive scanning devices. I distinctly recall a passage or two in The Making of Star Trek that said the term "sensor" was used loosley to describe many deivces. Now, recall that, since deflectors are used to "sweep crap away from the path of the ship," space-energy sensors might be some kind of pro-active system, or maybe just boosters to give the main dish some extra sweeping power. However, due to the Miranda's design, it might only need just two small SE sensors, rather than a more costly or more power intensive dish, which gives spare energy to the Phaser-G cannons. Now I feel better. No hard feelings, just had to get that out of the way. ;D
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Post by Lord Schtupp on Jan 1, 2005 3:53:08 GMT -5
Hey all Happy new year yadda yadda- didnt see that comanche. I am only a little wasted.
Im reading the arc discussion with interest
thought: You know what I would like to see is a complete TOS Fleet Order of battle list I mean every ship, fleet divisions etc. using the Atra designations but I wouldnt use the period I like "CH4B Monitor" looks cool like F4U1 (Corsair) US Navy or A6M2 Zero japanese aircraft designations. Some sort of designation system would cetainly have evolved and a Class/#/Subtype is the most logical anyway. And thats a good thing.
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 1, 2005 4:25:07 GMT -5
Actually, you're right to point out that the thing at the bottom of the impulse is not a deflector for sure, which is why I was cautious in not claiming its 100% veracity.
But the Miranda actually has THREE of those space energy sensors just like the Enterprise. The third one is located atop the photon torpedo housing. So that's 3 points for the sensors right there....plus the usual two for the saucer domes, which brings it only to 5, which seems a bit too low for a newer ship like this because even a Fed DD has 6 sensor hit points. But wherever the deflector may be on the ship (it could even be mixed in with the greeblies on the bottom of the ship) I'm assuming it's a smaller system than the big dish on the Enterprise, so I assign it a conservative 3 points. Heck, even 2 is acceptable. So either 7 or 8 would probably be the right number of sensors for this ship.
Imo, there seems to have been a visible proliferation of sensor housings on TMP ships when compared with TOS ships, and if we can make the specs reflect that then all the better.
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 1, 2005 4:35:17 GMT -5
Hey all Happy new year yadda yadda- didnt see that comanche. I am only a little wasted. Im reading the arc discussion with interest thought: You know what I would like to see is a complete TOS Fleet Order of battle list I mean every ship, fleet divisions etc. using the Atra designations but I wouldnt use the period I like "CH4B Monitor" looks cool like F4U1 (Corsair) US Navy or A6M2 Zero japanese aircraft designations. Some sort of designation system would cetainly have evolved and a Class/#/Subtype is the most logical anyway. And thats a good thing. This is my idea: Basically, the purpose of those bottom phasers are for a 3-D ventral attack. To fry your target if he slips under you. You understand the usefulness of such an array if you play Bridge Commander long enough. But how do we reflect the existence of these weapons in 2-D SFC? You can't just make all bottom phasers fire 360 because then that would make them sort of inacurate as to how the ship really uses those weapons. The only solution is to make them operable only on a 2-D plane, and in SFC's case this means limiting and seperating the arcs of each of those turrets individually, so they can't all bear and fire at once in any direction. A ventral array can't always be used in 3-D space...but other times it's the only weapon that can be used, for example if a target happens to be aft and below the Enterprise. It can only be used under the right conditions, so it's not supposed to be the best array on the ship. It is very useful in some situations, but it's not the main array. But if you give them 360 arcs in SFC then they will be firing whilly-nilly at anything and everything on the screen and they do become the main array. Well we can't have that, can we?
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Post by Mariner Class on Jan 1, 2005 12:05:38 GMT -5
Actually, you're right to point out that the thing at the bottom of the impulse is not a deflector for sure, which is why I was cautious in not claiming its 100% veracity. But the Miranda actually has THREE of those space energy sensors just like the Enterprise. The third one is located atop the photon torpedo housing. So that's 3 points for the sensors right there....plus the usual two for the saucer domes, which brings it only to 5, which seems a bit too low for a newer ship like this because even a Fed DD has 6 sensor hit points. But wherever the deflector may be on the ship (it could even be mixed in with the greeblies on the bottom of the ship) I'm assuming it's a smaller system than the big dish on the Enterprise, so I assign it a conservative 3 points. Heck, even 2 is acceptable. So either 7 or 8 would probably be the right number of sensors for this ship. Imo, there seems to have been a visible proliferation of sensor housings on TMP ships when compared with TOS ships, and if we can make the specs reflect that then all the better. Crap, I knew I was forgetting something. I'd be fine with giving it a 5 really, since if you use all the cannon weapons with the canon firing arcs (and somehow getting two more hardpoints to reflect the aft Phaser-G's,) it's going to be on the lines of a TMP Battlecruiser compared to the Enterprise (14 Phaser-Xs, 8 Photon Torpedoes with 4 FA and 4 RA, and the 4 PHaser-G's, firing 2 FA and 2 RA.) It's gotta be balanced somewhere, and that's in hull space. Obviously, the the Reliant-type Mirandas aren't supposed to be going out on Science missions, as there are other, much less heavily armed ships to choose from (the Lantree for one, which could be easily converted from freighter-duty, or the 300m Oberths, which are soley dedicated to such missions.) As to why it was even acting as a scouting ship for the Genesis project, it it may have had just enough sensor points to do that (which is probably why Terrell wanted a personal survey, and why Chekov thought the lifesigns were a malfunction or a miscalibration,) and Starfleet probably wanted a heavily armed craft to defend the project should anyone like Kruge try and steal it. As two ships seems like a waste of resources should the project be a failure, they just sent the Reliant to (barely) satisfy both requirements. Though I'd personally assume that the sensors might be slightly modified from their use on the Enterprise, so 6 or even 7 seems right. As for the integration of "sepcial" arcs like those on the DN and the Miranda, once the spripting comes out, we should be able to see if we can modfy the UI's to reflect this, and perhaps they'll give us arc information too. WE can only hope...
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 1, 2005 18:12:11 GMT -5
That seems like an overdose of Photons you've given the Miranda.
Consider this: We've never seen it fire more than 1 torp at a time from a given facing (fwd or aft). That's why I give my Miranda 2 X Heavy Photon fwd, 2 X Heavy Photon aft.
I personally think a ship like the TMP Enteprise can hold up to 8 torpedoes at a time in those launch tubes, ready to fire. That's because it has launch tubes that are really long because they have to pass the intermix tube that runs down between them (the torpedo room is behind the intermix shaft). But assigning 8 torps to that ship in SFC is not practical to arm, and so I settle for 4 X Heavy Photon.
In contrast, consider what the length of the Miranda's tubes might be: You have to have room for the launcher mechanisms in each tube, but also have room for storing all the casings (the Enterprise's casings are stored in the deck above the torpedo room). That could mean that less torps can be held in each tube ready to be fired. Plus there's the fact that we've never seen it fire more than 1 torp form a tube at a time. So I'm compelled to assign it 2 X Heavy Photon fwd, and another set aft.
As for the "Megaphasers", I use 2 X PhA FARA on each side, port and stbd.
Surprisingly, the CH5 comes out to have a higher BPV than this ship, as it probably should.
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Post by USS Mariner on Jan 1, 2005 19:09:14 GMT -5
That seems like an overdose of Photons you've given the Miranda. Consider this: We've never seen it fire more than 1 torp at a time from a given facing (fwd or aft). That's why I give my Miranda 2 X Heavy Photon fwd, 2 X Heavy Photon aft. I personally think a ship like the TMP Enteprise can hold up to 8 torpedoes at a time in those launch tubes, ready to fire. That's because it has launch tubes that are really long because they have to pass the intermix tube that runs down between them (the torpedo room is behind the intermix shaft). But assigning 8 torps to that ship in SFC is not practical to arm, and so I settle for 4 X Heavy Photon. In contrast, consider what the length of the Miranda's tubes might be: You have to have room for the launcher mechanisms in each tube, but also have room for storing all the casings (the Enterprise's casings are stored in the deck above the torpedo room). That could mean that less torps can be held in each tube ready to be fired. Plus there's the fact that we've never seen it fire more than 1 torp form a tube at a time. So I'm compelled to assign it 2 X Heavy Photon fwd, and another set aft. As for the "Megaphasers", I use 2 X PhA FARA on each side, port and stbd. Surprisingly, the CH5 comes out to have a higher BPV than this ship, as it probably should. Ah, so OP has simontaneous FARA arcs? Nice, I'll have to remember than when I get it... ;D As for the torps, consdier this, the torpedoes could be storped in the rollbar itself, like a modern magazine rack. This way, you have all the space in the top to have normal CH style launchers, and plenty of munitions to put behind them. Though it's tru that we haven't seen a Miranda fire more than one torp at a time, Khan may not have been able to fire more if the tubes were still damaged after the Enterprise fired back the first time (outside the nebula.) Just a thought.
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