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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 1, 2005 19:43:01 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I forgot you don't have OP yet. Lots more weapons and arcs to choose from.
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Post by Mariner Class on Jan 1, 2005 21:45:06 GMT -5
I take it that Phaser-A is a rapid-fire version or a Fed equivalent of a Phaser-G? How does that work?
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Post by Mariner Class on Jan 1, 2005 21:49:46 GMT -5
Oh yeah, didn't you raise your eyebrow when I mentioned the 300m Oberth? I always get blasted for that, even though that despite the ILM chart (which pegs it at 120m), the model's details were scaled to 300m (365 if you include the upper dome details, thouhg I personally ignore them ,) so it has just a little more mass than the Enterprise. Though, since the Grissiom apparently didn't have good weapons (or none at all, from looking at the model,) I guess that's fine.
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 1, 2005 22:06:13 GMT -5
I take it that Phaser-A is a rapid-fire version or a Fed equivalent of a Phaser-G? How does that work? No, it's a "shield downer" phaser, considered a Heavy Weapon.
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 1, 2005 22:09:54 GMT -5
Oh yeah, didn't you raise your eyebrow when I mentioned the 300m Oberth? I always get blasted for that, even though that despite the ILM chart (which pegs it at 120m), the model's details were scaled to 300m (365 if you include the upper dome details, thouhg I personally ignore them ,) so it has just a little more mass than the Enterprise. Though, since the Grissiom apparently didn't have good weapons (or none at all, from looking at the model,) I guess that's fine. That's interesting about the 300 m Oberth...what details exactly are you referring to that lead you to this conclusion? The Excelsior, if you look at the size of the command bridge, should be 2 X the length of the Enterprise, so about the same length as a Galaxy-class. But it was pegged at 1.5 X, which means it's got a miniscule bridge compared to the TMP Enterprise. Looks like there was a lack of communication somewhere for Trek III !
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Post by The Half Monte on Jan 1, 2005 22:55:34 GMT -5
Though it's tru that we haven't seen a Miranda fire more than one torp at a time, Khan may not have been able to fire more if the tubes were still damaged after the Enterprise fired back the first time (outside the nebula.)
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Post by Mariner Class on Jan 1, 2005 22:56:37 GMT -5
That's interesting about the 300 m Oberth...what details exactly are you referring to that lead you to this conclusion? The Excelsior, if you look at the size of the command bridge, should be 2 X the length of the Enterprise, so about the same length as a Galaxy-class. But it was pegged at 1.5 X, which means it's got a miniscule bridge compared to the TMP Enterprise. Looks like there was a lack of communication somewhere for Trek III ! Look at the windows on the Oberth model. They are about the same shape as normal TMP windows, but their size and placement indicates four normal size decks in the saucer alone, not including the bridge dome. Read Bernd's Oberth Size article, which contains many pictures and points. Although he says the ship is 150m, even he says that's to keep the Oberth "small" like it was supposed to be, and what the Vico (a civvie Oberth) MSD indicates in TNG: "Hero Worship," even though the damaged Vico model used in the same episode validates the 300m figure! It's half blown open saucer even shows all the decks that are supposed to be there! ;D www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/oberth-size.htmConcerning the Excelsior, in TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint," the Hood does appear to be just about 40-50m shorter than the Enterprise...and the Tsiolkovsky was shown at about 300m in comparision to the Enterprise in "The Naked Now."
Interesting that all later TNG seasons and Trek series (DS9 especially) never seem to get the ships scaled right. Then again, they never had Andrew Probert as the Art Director, either.
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Post by Mariner Class on Jan 1, 2005 23:04:14 GMT -5
Though it's tru that we haven't seen a Miranda fire more than one torp at a time, Khan may not have been able to fire more if the tubes were still damaged after the Enterprise fired back the first time (outside the nebula.) Well, my impression was that they could've impulsed over to Regula, and don't forget that impulse is routinely used to travel interstellar distances (remember TMP? ) Impulse isn't actually a rocket-thrust system, but a subspace-field based drive, with the impulse reactors only POWERING the subspace-driver coils, with exahust as a byproduct, able to provide a little thrust. This came from askng Rick Sternbach himself on the Trek BBS, and I think it's best to disregard "The Naked Time," which treats the impulse engines like rockets anyway. Besides, if a society has warp drive and photon torpedoes, why bother with primitive rocketry when they don't need to?
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CptSavage
Commodore
I'll take The Rapist for $200
Posts: 341
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Post by CptSavage on Jan 2, 2005 0:30:40 GMT -5
No, it's a "shield downer" phaser, considered a Heavy Weapon. When you think about it, the Phaser A would be the direct predecesor to what one would call the "Modern Phaser" if you considered TNG to be the present.
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 2, 2005 3:23:57 GMT -5
When you think about it, the Phaser A would be the direct predecesor to what one would call the "Modern Phaser" if you considered TNG to be the present. Yeah, the only problem with it is that it takes 2 turns to arm. But if the source code gets released, a TNG phaser should be made.
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 2, 2005 4:03:05 GMT -5
Look at the windows on the Oberth model. They are about the same shape as normal TMP windows, but their size and placement indicates four normal size decks in the saucer alone, not including the bridge dome. Read Bernd's Oberth Size article, which contains many pictures and points. Although he says the ship is 150m, even he says that's to keep the Oberth "small" like it was supposed to be, and what the Vico (a civvie Oberth) MSD indicates in TNG: "Hero Worship," even though the damaged Vico model used in the same episode validates the 300m figure! It's half blown open saucer even shows all the decks that are supposed to be there! ;D www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/oberth-size.htmConcerning the Excelsior, in TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint," the Hood does appear to be just about 40-50m shorter than the Enterprise...and the Tsiolkovsky was shown at about 300m in comparision to the Enterprise in "The Naked Now."
Interesting that all later TNG seasons and Trek series (DS9 especially) never seem to get the ships scaled right. Then again, they never had Andrew Probert as the Art Director, either. Thanks for pointing this out. You know what? I support the 150 meter figure for the Oberth over the 120 m figure. Here's why: Because the 120 meter figure seems to me to be a kind of scale tyranny. This is what I call it when against all rhyme and reason, or even from lack of proper research, some guy quotes a number for a Trek book and then after that everyone else falls in line. Also, that 120 m figure is a pretty recent invention, let's take a look at some earlier sources, shall we? www.sub-odeon.com/stsstcsmua/federation/gagarin.htmlThere we go....FASA said it was 150 m. I figure they must have asked somebody at ILM or something, and the ILM guys obvioulsy were NOT working with that 120 m figure. They, the makers of the ship, had their own ideas about what the ship should be. It's only later, much later (in another era actually) that somebody came along and hit us with that 120 m stick until we were all beaten into submission. It;s also the minimum size the ship has to be to have reasonable deck heights, as Bernd says: "150m - two decks If we stick to two decks in the saucer, 150m would be required to provide reasonable deck heights, matching what we have seen inside the ship. The problems with the cargo bay doors and the turbolifts would be alleviated a little bit. The ship would be a bit larger, but still overall very small for a crew of 80 and all the required equipment." It's quite possible for TNG there was a larger clone of it made, at 300+ m. I know Jein made the damaged model for that TNG episode, but Jein was not the original designer of that ship. He was extrapolating what the decks would look like based on looking at just the windows, and he ends up putting 4 dekcs into the saucer instead of 2. At the very elast, this means that he was unaware of the 120 m figure, and if that's the case how "official" could it have been? Yet more evidence to support my theory of text tyranny.
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Post by USS Mariner on Jan 2, 2005 11:35:11 GMT -5
Thanks for pointing this out. You know what? I support the 150 meter figure for the Oberth over the 120 m figure. Here's why: Because the 120 meter figure seems to me to be a kind of scale tyranny. This is what I call it when against all rhyme and reason, or even from lack of proper research, some guy quotes a number for a Trek book and then after that everyone else falls in line. Also, that 120 m figure is a pretty recent invention, let's take a look at some earlier sources, shall we? www.sub-odeon.com/stsstcsmua/federation/gagarin.htmlThere we go....FASA said it was 150 m. I figure they must have asked somebody at ILM or something, and the ILM guys obvioulsy were NOT working with that 120 m figure. They, the makers of the ship, had their own ideas about what the ship should be. It's only later, much later (in another era actually) that somebody came along and hit us with that 120 m stick until we were all beaten into submission. It;s also the minimum size the ship has to be to have reasonable deck heights, as Bernd says: "150m - two decks If we stick to two decks in the saucer, 150m would be required to provide reasonable deck heights, matching what we have seen inside the ship. The problems with the cargo bay doors and the turbolifts would be alleviated a little bit. The ship would be a bit larger, but still overall very small for a crew of 80 and all the required equipment." It's quite possible for TNG there was a larger clone of it made, at 300+ m. I know Jein made the damaged model for that TNG episode, but Jein was not the original designer of that ship. He was extrapolating what the decks would look like based on looking at just the windows, and he ends up putting 4 dekcs into the saucer instead of 2. At the very elast, this means that he was unaware of the 120 m figure, and if that's the case how "official" could it have been? Yet more evidence to support my theory of text tyranny. Obviously, there was a bit of miscommunication in Trek III, so I'm not sure if Nilo noticed if there were any changes from the ILM chart (which DOES say 120m.) FASA, although they were being referenced and used in the first season of TNG, isn't totally accurate in many respects, despite having the minimum size for the ship to have normal deck heights. Still, I'd much rather belive the model, which indicates a 300m ship, since we get very close up shots of the relabeled Pegasus model in "The Pegasus." But, eh, whatever.
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 2, 2005 16:45:00 GMT -5
I don't think there was good communication between the designers and ILM at large...in the same house! That 120 m figure looks like it was tyrannized after the ship was designed, because had they said to the designer: Give us a 120 m ship, I don't think it would've been a problem.
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Post by USS Mariner on Jan 2, 2005 18:23:09 GMT -5
I don't think there was good communication between the designers and ILM at large...in the same house! That 120 m figure looks like it was tyrannized after the ship was designed, because had they said to the designer: Give us a 120 m ship, I don't think it would've been a problem. True. Though I guess we'll have different opinions apparently. Anyway, about the Excelsior scaling error, are you talking about the "normal" (TUC) version, with smaller bridge module, or about the "original" Excelsior, with a single ginormous Impulse Crystal and bridge dome? EDIT: Here's a shot of some of the more major TUC modfications, which gives the Excelsior a Galaxy styled observation area. www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/mechanics/excelsior3.jpg
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Post by Atrahasis on Jan 2, 2005 18:29:47 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm talking about the NCC-2000, which by looking at the bridge alone indicates a ship about the length of a Galaxy-class. I just don't see how you can fit Sulu and all his buds into a bridge that size if the ship is scaled to 1.5 X the Enterprise's length, because the bridge turns out to be smaller than the Enterprise's!
And about the 300 meter Oberth, I'm not diametrically opposed to the idea....especially for TNG which could have had a larger version.
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